Have you read Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna?

Mik, I am not suggesting baptism is nothing more than a marker / metric. I regret that you construed that from my comments. You know better than I that baptism of new believers in to a faith community is (at least it is meant to be) an integral function of ongoing discipleship and that discipleship is not meant to cease at the point of a “baptismal ceremony” which does not represent complete baptism in itself. Rather baptism of one into a faith community may take months, years, or how however long it takes. Much the same as our assimilation into Gods family is a work in progress (evidently). Kind regards GlenN

I would agree with you Amanda if we were purely speaking about numbers but that is not what I am advocating for. I am advocating for the church being real servants in the community, and being and remaining on life’s journey with people and as fruit of those relationships and discipleship the lost are baptised in to communities of faith in the way Christ intends and the relationship and discipleship and servanthood continues. I trust Amanda that you don’t mean this is not important. My accent on “non-churched” people is to differentiate between a local church that is inward looking and celebrating only baptisms of their own children who have grown up within the church (which I think is a good and beautiful thing) and lost sheep coming into the flock.

Leaders are responsible for how and where to they are leading. Absolving leaders from responsibility doesn’t help. It is the current leadership culture that resists apest and in doing so creates an impossible burden for themselves.

Love the list started of missional effectiveness and the heart behind it. A little ironic that it, too, is all numbers. How about encouraging sent lives, locally and globally? Are churches sending people? Could we be better overall at spiritual disciplines – Sabbath, time in the Word, prayer? How could these be encouraged without being reduced to a number?

So it’s totally the leadership’s fault if people aren’t reaching their neighbors and friends for Christ?? I think not.

There’s reponsibility on both sides.

Read Ephesians chapter 4. The Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists, and Teachers are given by God to the local church to train those they lead TO DO THE WORK of the ministry. Not sit and watch leaders do it.

We need to abolish the idea that the Pastor does everything cause he’s paid. It’s burning out pastor’s and making spectator’s and consumer’s out of congregation members.

But leadership is responsible for training in evangelism and encouraging those they lead in it.

We’re all in this together, each one with our own God given roles to fulfil the Great Commission.