Comments on: Can the seminary produce visionary leaders? https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/ AUTHOR | SPEAKER | MISSIOLOGIST | AGITATOR Thu, 05 Oct 2017 03:54:34 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.4.4 By: SChen https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2728 Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:55:57 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2728 Found this post after reading one of your newer posts. I suspect there’s much we may disagree on but I really appreciate the question and your candidness. To avoid unnecessary hair-triggers, let it be said it’s a question of institution vs. non-institution, a tension just as applicable to conservative institutions as well as self-consciously missional, liberal, mystical, etc. institutions. Those who have excelled in a given setting are the winners who in some way are part of its elite (whether good or ill). So given the institutional setting, a big part of the call is to teach, correct, rebuke, train those not so much perpetuate the institutional trappings but to ever more radical allegiance and faithfulness and marvel of the One and the means of grace He has chosen to bring about His kingdom. In a sense, faithfulness in an institutional setting is to patiently exhort the Nicodemuses, to recognize, come alongside, build up, and welcome into fellowship weirdos like Saul/Paul, to be bilingual toward working toward the proper mutually-edifying order of parts of the body the Spirit so designates. In the vein of your post’s concern, I was convicted by Mika Edmondson’s question why was it that MLK Jr. had to go to institutions like Boston University for resources and support for seminary? (https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/is-black-lives-matter-the-new-civil-rights-movement). At any rate, the goal is not to always ever be cutting edge but ever radically closer to the taproot of the Vine. Institutions have a role in that, as do pioneers; let’s not overexalt one over the other. I appreciate the post in pointing out institutions’ tendency to overexalt itself, but pioneers are equally vulnerable to the tendency. Only by the Spirit, can they joined in a mutually-edifying body to His Glory. This may not be the most provocative sexy rallying cry, but I do think it the most constructive, faithful approach.

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By: Galen Manapat https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2593 Fri, 15 Sep 2017 23:06:21 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2593 My journey has been through reformed Baptist Churches, Presbyterian Church in America groups, and now the Anglican Church in North America. Scripture has guided my life through ALL OF THEM. This thread is making things Tooooooooooo complicated.

You are so proud of your scholarship ? You want to do what Christ himself told you to do ? Then go back to Mathew 28 and its surrounding context and do some exegesis in the Greek (which scholars are so proud of) Does it say to build church buildings, and million dollar satellite churches, actually NO ! It doesn’t. Does Jesus the Saviour ask you to build 6 million dollar churches ? No it doesn’t ! Does it ask you to provide a church meeting more “consumer friendly” or a homogeneous (white like us !, or perhaps black like us !, or perhaps Chinese like us !) fresh “church plant” ? No it doesn’t. Where is the emphasis in the New Testament ? Answer: Preaching the gospel “to the sick”, taking care of widows and orphans, using your own money (and/or possessions) to help those who have nothing, and visiting those in prison and giving them food and Jesus’s hope (because in ancient times there was no obligation to even feed a prisoner. The food kept them from dying, invisible) For those of you who are slow “getting it” Jesus says in Matthew 28, “teaching them ALL THE THINGS I TAUGHT YOU, (implied, over the last three years AS I LIVED WITH YOU) (Read the gospels to find out what that was !) and teaching other faithful men (and women, implied) NOT ONLY THAT ! but teach them how to teach THAT to others, MAKING DISCIPLES. It is NOT about wanting to get more people into YOUR Church “to raise weekly numbers !” WHO told you it is It is Jesus’s CHURCH, fool ! That is addition. With that strategy Islam will eventually overwhelm the church. Jesus talked about multiplication! NOW, I am not going to finish the “book or lecture ” here; but HERE IS THE CHALLENGE: Paul LOVES military analogies. Are you going to OBEY your superior, or are you going to “wing it” as the ancient Frank Sinatra suggested ?

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By: Michael Frost https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2584 Thu, 14 Sep 2017 23:30:33 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2584 It’s odd to hear people trying to tell me they don’t think teaching is a primary purpose of the sermon. Tell that to the myriad preachers who advertise their upcoming “teaching series”, post their sermons online and try to turn them into books, and insist their midweek groups discuss them.

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By: Jay Mumper https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2583 Thu, 14 Sep 2017 19:19:42 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2583 In reply to MarkO.

I am not and have never been a paid pastor. My day job is a non-church professional role in IT working for a large multi-national company.
My ministry work is motivated by my passion for the Gospel and the people I serve.

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By: MarkO https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2582 Thu, 14 Sep 2017 19:10:31 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2582 Out of curiosity, how many of the commenters here benefit from the ‘current’ system? Isn’t one of the points of Mike’s blog that most of those who benefit from a particular system will have a natural resistance to act in a way that would radically change that system…? From my perspective, while well-intentioned and no doubt sincere, some of the comments here through trying to dispute Mike’s point have simply confirmed it.

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By: Wes Bergen https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2581 Thu, 14 Sep 2017 16:14:46 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2581 In reply to Michael Frost.

Possible purposes of a sermon: comfort people who are sorrowing; tell people that God loves them; remind people of the importance of community; build up people in their walk of faith; bring hope or joy or peace; encourage people in the midst of despair; teach the Bible.
What separates this list from “just teach the Bible” is that most of these goals are not pedagogical. You are correct (imho), monologue is not a good pedagogical technique. But monologues are good for other things, and a well-prepared and well-delivered sermon can accomplish some of these other things. If our major purpose is pedagogy, then yes we should stop preaching. But every week I get up there and, using the Bible in a variety of ways, I try to help people make sense of their lives and the world around them. And I know that monologues are one way to do this.
Having said this, i also need to say that I agree with most of your initial argument. Seminaries are not doing a good job of preparing people for the various tasks of being a pastor, and furthermore we need to rethink this whole concept of church from within our local context.

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By: Where are the innovators and dreamers in the church? | Rohadi's Blog https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2580 Thu, 14 Sep 2017 16:07:41 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2580 […] Frost, posed a question on his blog: mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/. He also questions the necessity of potential relics like preaching (I asked the same question in […]

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By: Ken May https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2579 Thu, 14 Sep 2017 15:48:10 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2579 I will contend that the primary purpose of the sermon is to invite the hearer to engage the heart and mind with the scripture. While that can be didactic, if that becomes the primary purpose, then your are correct in saying there are better methodologies to accomplish this. However, I contend that the sermon ought to invite us, through the appropriate use of questions calling upon our common experiences, to engage the message and meaning of the scriptures with our own wills. Engagement is the key. Simply conveying information or memorable outlines is inadequate and not really helpful. The sermons I remember are those I experienced with my heart, not those I took notes on or those with an alliterative outline.

To your original premise, I am in full agreement with that leaning, but I am convinced that the failure of the church to transform as needed is due to its primary control of the church “system” by those who fit best with the “system” as it has become, those who fulfill the pastor and teacher gifted roles, not necessarily offices, and the expulsion or exit of the evangelistic, and apostolic roles that are calling for something new. See Curt Watke’s APEPT profile. Of course, I am operating out of my prophetic role here (how to make thing better). I am grateful to you for your role in calling for change. And, as we all know, change is usually slow if it comes at all.

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By: Donald McMahon https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2577 Thu, 14 Sep 2017 11:17:38 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2577 One of the pillars of this argument is that the “25 minute monologue” is ineffective and needs to change. This recent Gallup poll substantially refutes that (at least in the USA): http://www.gallup.com/poll/208529/sermon-content-appeals-churchgoers.aspx
With that being said, there must be passion, truth, and imaginative communication-all based strongly on scripture.

BTW-I came to the pulpit after a US Coast Guard 29 year career and after owning my own business, which I mention because I try to bring this background to bear when leading the flock.

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By: David Gore https://mikefrost.net/can-seminary-produce-visionary-leaders/#comment-2574 Thu, 14 Sep 2017 08:05:57 +0000 https://mikefrost.net/?p=27218#comment-2574 What you say makes sense Mike.
More recently, I have become less convinced that visionary leadership is the critical missing element when it comes to the healthy future of the followers of Jesus.
I consider healthy examples of faithful discipleship to be a more strategic element.

This may simply be a reflection of my personal learning style, but I have found spending time with others who are actively seeking to be faithful to the call of Christ and exploring together what that might mean for each of us, to be the most helpful.
Of course this can take a variety of forms and one might rightly call this activity ‘church’.

For me it comes down to the direction and intent of the getting together. Our motives become more apparent as we go along and we need ongoing ‘reformation’ and re-callibrating… of our values and desires (perhaps more than visionary stuff).

As I write this, I am aware that I resist the notion of a visionary leader partly because they often create more passive followers. I suspect Jesus would not have passed as a visionary leader. His PR strategies were clumsy and inconsistent.

I wonder what we are hoping for in leaders in this day.

I am helped by others who empower me with skills/understanding/permission/support/modelling.
That is the kind of leadership I’m most interested to see.

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