Comments on: Purists and Pragmatists Unite!

By: Ethan

Ethan — Tue, 08 Feb 2022 21:03:18 +0000

Eating that omelette with arms around each other is a beautiful picture. May we have more of that in our churches.

By: Ada

Ada — Thu, 11 Nov 2021 19:07:27 +0000

“for our customers’ nourishment not just their pleasure.”
That’s the heart of the problem of churches & Christians, at least near where I live.
There’s so much focus on attracting people, & doing things they want. But that’s assuming people actually know what is good for them, & we often don’t.
Also related to this, I think we have a serious problem of gluttony. Which is a deadly sin.

By: Jim Amy

Jim Amy — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 17:02:43 +0000

It may be “effective” to serve up spaghetti and meatballs in order to attract people to Church, but if these people are still eating the same meal five years later, the Church (the gospel) is not doing its job. That is my concern.
Lots of churches giving people what they want and few providing what they need to become strong and healthy. My dad was a pastor and I have been in ministry for 40 years and I see pragmatists winning the day in the Church and I don’t think that bodes well for the future. Also, we do not think critically about our use of technologies in the Church. Technology is here to stay but let’s at least think clearly about it’s potential for ill as well as good – especially in God’s redeemed community!
We cannot afford to be hard headed purists but neither can we afford to carelessly cast away the treasures and gifts of the Church that make it the transformative institution we all so desperately need!

By: Clay Parker

Clay Parker — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 14:36:13 +0000

Thank you, Mike. I guess I’m a pragmapuritist! I want the “new and exciting” to blend seamlessly with the “tried and true” methods of worship. I feel like I maybe need to embrace the tension that exists between the two “sides” instead of seeing them as foes.

By: Kent Kingston

Kent Kingston — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 05:51:57 +0000

Another thought-provoking article, Mike. I think there are a couple more factors at play:
First, organisational development. A young movement will likely be more responsive to the surrounding culture, as Christianity was in apostolic times, with all its radical acceptance of the other and Pauline contextualisation. As movements become established they tend to establish an orthodoxy that breeds more purist attitudes. On the other hand a new movement with simple, pure ideals can be corrupted by pragmatic concerns as it grows.
Second, age. Young people are generally more interested in being relevant and connecting with culture. Older people–like the three older film directors you mentioned–often have a stake in the status quo, become more conservative, and struggle to see change as anything but watering down the real thing. But again, it’s often the case that it works the other way too–with age comes the death of ideals and the acceptance of the complexities of reality.

By: Tim

Tim — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 01:41:59 +0000

In reply to Michael Frost.

Yes, we definitely did discuss pragmatic stuff – but that was always in classes with titles like ‘Leadership’. Maybe if I drill my comment down a bit – where it felt really purist was in the majority of classes, where it felt a bit more ‘pragmatism’ around how to help people actually understand the massive information downloads you received about OT, NT, Acts, etc.

And I know colleges can’t be the be all and end all in training and teaching – formation for church leaders is expected to happen in their churches and placements also. But that maybe where there needs to be more modelling of taking time to reflect on how to be that ‘hinge’

By: Peter Llewellyn

Peter Llewellyn — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 01:40:10 +0000

Nice blog Mike. Analogy falls down a little – idealist liturgists think the stakes are a bit higher than perfect Italian food. They say they are imitating the Divine Liturgy that’s conducted in heaven, and there is no room for Secondo in that. Yes, there’s a bit of a conflict between ideals: the Greek Orthodox, the Anglo-Catholics (simple and ornate sub-sects), and Rome can’t all be right unless there are are multiple liturgies in heaven. But this really implies that there is something else going on beyond mere imitation of an ideal. As for the pragmatists, McDonalds works. Anything else is tainted by idealism of some sort at some level. It’s a sad day when the nature of the church’s core business is determined by keepin’ the customers satisfied.

By: Gary

Gary — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 01:28:10 +0000

As usual a home run ( do you hit home runs In Australia)

By: Michael Frost

Michael Frost — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 01:24:49 +0000

In reply to Tim. That's interesting. I guess college could always be more pragmatic and church could be more purist. I think Mark Labberton's point in the article I quote from is that the pragmatic needs of churches have come to so dominate colleges that the deep formation of Christlike leaders gets overlooked or fast-tracked. But such deep formation isn't a quick or easy process. I guess that's where church leaders become the hinge between the pragmatic needs of their churches and the idealism and reflection of the college.

By: Rodney Beer

Rodney Beer — Tue, 09 Nov 2021 01:18:44 +0000

Makes sense to me. In church ministry I found the expectations and extremes exhausting.
Thank God I found my niche in semi-secular chaplaincy work where I could be an evangelist occasionally, and Jesus’ representative (I hope) fairly constantly.